#2 – DR KRIS KERR Finding Authenticity, Self Sabotage + Living Out Childhood Dreams

• Med Review –  A yearly entertainment show put on by medical students at the University of Queensland
• Swat Vac – a week before exams that is cleared of any classes to allow students time to review and prepare for the exam period usually 2-3 weeks at the end of each semester.
• UQ Grading system in the 90s – you were graded from 1 – 7, 1 being the worst, 7 being the beset, and 4 meaning a pass.
• Queensland Ballet – Strictly Gershwin 2016  –
• The Process Communication Method

Derrick – today I have a very special guest here, Kris Kerr , Dr. Kris Kerr, a former medical colleague, medical student friend.

Kris – So we’ve known each other for how many years since the last millennium. We would have met in first year. So 1991.

Derrick – Yeah, that’s a very long time ago. Wow. That is 30 years ago.

Kris – Yeah. Hang on. Yes, yes, yes. That’s crazy.

Derrick – Yeah it is crazy

Kris – I just realized and probably around about this time. Yeah. This is a friendiversary 30 year friendiversary. Right today.

Derrick – Yeah. it’ll be showing up on Facebook.

Kris – Yeah. Right.

Derrick – If it was back, it was around back.

Kris – Absolutely.

Derrick – But yeah. I mean, you were a I mean, we had so many things to cover here. I’m really excited.

Kris – Thank you.

Derrick – Even when I first met you, you came across as someone that was very you know, I would say very disciplined person.

Kris – yeah.

Derrick – And I guess, you know, one of the earliest memories I actually have or what I can remember is that you were a dancer before you actually got into medicine.

Kris – Yes.

Derrick – And that was actually something you were deciding between whether you should go the dancing route or the medical route.

Kris – Absolutely. That was a big deal. Shall I chat a bit more.

Derrick – Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I mean, the other thing I just I’ll just throw in there was that I remember seeing photos or maybe I just conjured up this image, but I remember that you had like rooms of all the medals and throphies out

Kris – They are at my mom’s house.

Derrick – Yes. The whole room just for that.

Kris – Like the shrine. Yeah, I, I lived and breathed dance and music right from a very young age. And my, my grandmother was a music teacher so I was learning piano in the room really because I’m pretty sure my mom would have been over the family home and like Grandma would have been teaching and I would have been listening to all this. And I strongly believe that fetuses pick up far more than we realize. Absolutely.

Derrick – I do remember that thing. I remember when you bring this up. I remember there was this news story about if you played the neighbours. (Popular Australian Soapie in the UK)  Yes. They had some kind of an effect. So like. Yeah.

Kris – Totally. And, look, one of my earliest memories is going to a library when I was two, maybe, and I found a book. Which was hand illustrated, but it had male and female dancers in it, and I remember pointing to the man who was wearing this tunic and black tights, and I think it was like a Swan Lake kind of thing. And I said to my mama, when I want to do this, like, I really knew that. And I think for me, I got a sense from the way that he was holding his body, like in a ballet pose that it was very expressive.

And I was always in an emotional child. Not not outwardly, but I felt emotions deeply like that’s been with being with me since a young kid. So dance fits to fit it in really well with me because it’s movement to music. And for me anyway, it was expressing emotions through music in a way that just made a lot of sense to me.

Derrick – And how old were you when you saw this?

Kris – two

Derrick – Two?

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – Man, that’s amazing.

Kris – Well, I can remember that because I can also remember my first ballet class, which was what was on my third birthday. So I this is very clear to me about going there. And I had been wanting to learn, but they had a rule that you had to be three. And so I used to peer underneath the little crack in the sliding wooden door when my sister was having classes sort of waiting for her and I was itching, itching to get there and be amongst it.

Derrick – Were you trying to copy at that time or you just.

Kris – I don’t I don’t remember copying. I think and I don’t think I would have been because I’m someone I’ve got a very vivid, rich inner world. And so I could have always had that so I could look under a door and imagine myself doing things. And I would never have had to have moved. Yeah, I would have had the same experience just by looking.

Yes. And yeah.  So dance and music really preoccupied a lot of my thoughts and my hopes and dreams were geared around that of what I would be doing in adult life. I didn’t really have the 12 steps in mind, but that was what I was envisaging. And then I was coincidentally doing well at school. And I liked learning, but I never focused on school. I never studied. I did my assignments and put a lot of pride in them. But I was not that kid who was studying before exams ever.

And in our final year of high school, I started to, I guess, look with adult eyes or early adult eyes about what the industry might be like. And I started to be unclear about how to get the 12 steps to happen or the 20 steps or the 50 steps. There wasn’t a clear pathway for me and I stalled. And this was probably one of the only kids that ever went to the guidance counsellor that was at school.

But I did. I went and I said, I feel lost. I’ve wanted to pursue dancing music all to my life. And I have all this training and ability and was doing very, very well in that field. I just feel like it’s not right for me. For some reason I feel lost. And the guidance counsellor said, What else do you like to do? And I said, Well, I like the idea of helping people and understanding how people tick, I guess.

And so she advised me to see a psychologist at the university, not not for the purpose of having psychotherapy, but for the purpose of what is it like to be a psychologist. And then that psychologist said, how are you doing in school? She was just checking if I would have enough grades to get in. And I said, well, I’m dux of my school. And she just like put a pin down and said, well, you should go to medical school to be a psychiatrist because it will give you some options with prescribing medication.

And that was it. Like that was that happened a week before we had to fill out your qtac form. I walked in that thing. We had to click the box of what you’re going to be in life.

And so very suddenly, I just completely changed tack. And my family were surprised.

I was even surprised. And there I was like, I always grade twelve. Suddenly I was thinking, I’m going to do something academic and. I turned up to medical school, really only having been to a doctor myself once, I, I really knew nothing about anything and I thought that we would stream right from the get go. So I thought to be a psychiatrist, I would turn up and I’d do the six years in medical school as a psychiatry medical student.  So when they took us to the dissection labs

Derrick – And we were doing cockroaches.

Kris – Yeah, yeah. And well and humans like human bodies. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, I’m in the psych stream, you know? And I was like, no, there’s no stream. So I had so little information about it, I really didn’t understand what would be happening. I didn’t know any of the terms. I hadn’t even heard of very basic words, apart from what I learned in grade 12 biology. But I was really behind so far as the whole concept of it. And it took me about six months to just feel like I was on the same page as people. You.

Derrick – Yeah, I’m curious, when you made this decision to go, OK, medicine instead of dance, I’m sure I mean, given that you were very successful as a dancer in competitions and all that. Yeah. All your dance instructors when they went there trying to say, no, no, you can do this.

You can do that, you what was their input into this whole process?

Kris – You know, curiously, I mean, I have a little bit of shame about this in a way, but I actually just stopped completely right. Cold turkey I never even went to see my teachers to say goodbye.

Derrick – Oh, really?

Kris – Yeah. Yeah.

Derrick – They never they never you never brought this up that you’re not sure what you wanted to do. No, they never really suggested otherwise if

Kris – they had no idea. And essentially it was almost I mean, this is actually a pathological response. I realize that now. But I just completely cut myself off from that scene altogether and proceeded to have a profound grief reaction for about six months about that whole experience. I would do things so much differently now, you know. Yeah, if I go back thirty years. But that that is what I did.

So no one really had a chance to say, what are you doing? Because I just I was like cut communication. I felt like it was the only way I could go on the new path because it was almost like all my blood supply was like if if that was the placenta and I was the baby, like I was so connected to that world I had to cut myself off to survive. Otherwise, I don’t know. I don’t know. I would have been so difficult for me and I didn’t dance at all in any shape or form.

And for four years until I decided to look for a part time job to earn some money in medical school. And I started teaching. Then, but, no, I, I just couldn’t I actually couldn’t face doing a class or seeing anyone from the industry. It’s pretty bad that I did that, but I did it. Yeah,

Derrick – you mentioned it’s a pathological response.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – What how would you define that?

Kris – Well, I  as a 16 year old, I didn’t I didn’t know how to grieve healthily, OK?

I learnt that later in life so I can look back now and see that that was an abnormal grief reaction. Right. I know grieving. You know, and I knew this even from a kid. Like if I had a best friend in grade three at school and I found out they were leaving to move to a different state, I wouldn’t be able to. I just couldn’t even talk to them. I didn’t know how to grieve. And so my instinct was I had to just imagine that just that didn’t exist in my life.

It was the only way I knew how to get around that

Derrick – kind of dissociate kind of.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah, almost just like pretend like put blinkers on and say, I used to do that a lot with anything that involved sadness, I would just naturally do that because I didn’t really have the, the skills to grieve. And I probably only learned that about myself when I started to train the model that I teach that we were talking about just before. Yes. Yeah.

Derrick – Will get to definitely get it. So OK, so that’s great. So you did get back in and you just mentioned that you didn’t do anything until fourth year and that just made me think, oh, that’s interesting because I’m sure that the Med review would have loved having you on board.

Kris – I never, ever do it, you know, and I didn’t I actually I didn’t want to be involved. I didn’t actually I didn’t actually want to be seen by people dancing.

I was happy to teach behind the scenes, but it was almost like I was trying to forget that I used to do that. Yeah. Yeah, it is a it’s a it’s a pathological grief reaction. Like, I can look back now and think all these things I could have done effectively, but I just didn’t even want to be involved in Med Review at all. And sidebar, six months into medical school, I finally got the study bug, which probably some people had in high school, like I had never studied.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – And I became the nerd. And the thought of getting having time off to to prepare for the Med Review would have just been

Kris – would’ve been a distraction.

Derrick – Completely. That’s actually what I want to talk about, because for me, you know, my pattern in most of my life has been a procrastination pattern. I would not do anything until the last thing I sound like that. You probably paid attention in class when you were in primary school,

Kris – Oh Yeah

Derrick – in high school. And that’s why you’re able to, like, do really well because. Yes, whereas me, I would play up in school, you know, I would focus and then I won’t do anything until, you know, the night before or whatever. And I remember going through like our med what they call those exam periods. What.

Kris – Swatvac

Derrick – Yes. What I remember going through those swatvac things and I just have like multiple nights. No sleep, just on coffee.

Kris – Yeah. Okay. So so this says a lot about the different ways that we unmotivated effectively. So, you know, we can talk about the power of procrastination, but it sounds to me like adrenaline is a very powerful motivator for you.

Derrick – Yeah, That’s definitely something that has been a force in my life in terms of I need to I like that that deadline kind of a thing and trying to get stuff done in a very short period time, not very effective. And that’s why I always looked well. It can be in certain things, but I think for study, yeah. Certain things require consistency, exercise, all that kind of you can’t cram exercise and.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – So I always really looked up to you because I saw that you always, you always stayed on top of things and you always made sure that you were like, you know, whatever we studied that day, you’d make sure you understood it all so that you wouldn’t you wouldn’t be like me the night before, trying to trying to make sense of of all the data or whatever.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – So yeah. What, what, how. Tell me about how you got the study bug. What was it that kind of like got into you.

Kris – Yeah, I think it was, it was not a malicious comment at all. It was more like my dad made a whimsical statement. My dad is a very deeply reflective person. And so he kind of shares his reflections out loud a little bit. And I got my results at the end of semester one and I got like credits or fives pretty much pretty much along the board, which is not bad. I mean, I, I was trying to study, but I didn’t know how. And I shared my results with my family and my dad said, oh, I had imagined you would get something like that. And there was something about hearing that where I thought, oh, I wonder why he didn’t imagine I would do more. And I think it’s actually fair that he would imagine that because I really didn’t I wasn’t effectively studying. I was trying, but I didn’t really know how.

And so it’s actually a reasonable statement. But I decided to set myself a goal of like, well, what would it be like if I did study? And this is a good and bad thing. So you can say you could have. You are admiring me for being disciplined, but my goal was so strict that if I didn’t get a high distinction, that was a fail.

Derrick – Sure.

Kris – So I moved the bar so far. And because that was where my bar was, I effectively set my I put myself in a prison of study, which I was very happily doing at the time.  And I guess my I rapidly realized that this was a repetition concept in the first four years of medical school. It was so much knowledge to acquire finding patterns, which is what I excelled at all through my childhood wasn’t going to be enough because they were too many, too many links, too many dots to link.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – So I made a disciplined note of turning up to every lecture, writing down all the facts. And then that evening, I would create diagrams or some kind of summaries that would make sense to me, knowing that if I looked at them by the end of the week, I could rapidly look at it and understand the lecture. Yeah. And so I just I did this for the next five and a half years of medical school, exactly the same thing.

I went home and I summarized it in some way that day while it was still fresh in my mind so that I could refer to it later. And every week I went through the notes for the week and then at the end of the month, I went through all the notes for the end of the month.

Derrick – That is brilliant. Did you. Now, did you realize that those those time periods that you’re talking about? I think I’m pretty sure that that’s what’s been studied as being effective in how to recall and memorize, is that you review the stuff on the same day, maybe the next day, within a week, within a month. And then it’s pretty much locked in a long time.

Kris – Well, and it was for me and almost to the point where, you know, because you remember in medical school, there was lectures and tutorials and sometimes assignments or whatever. So we did the same concept a few different ways. And so. Having attended electoral reading about the lecture beforehand and then turning up, by the time I got to the tutorial, I was sort of wondering why we were doing it, because you read it like, well, I’ve not only understood it, but I almost had a summary of it so that I could have given the tutorial.

Derrick – Yes, you could have been.

Kris – I’m not I’m not being arrogant, but really, I really I really was that informed about the subject inasmuch as it could be without actually having practice as a doctor, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so I just yeah. It’s interesting. People have said that it works. It works for me. Yeah. I think the key is to find what works for me. Something that I mean I can tell just from knowing you and knowing me is that.

On a spectrum, I would be far more internally motivated than you are, right, that you’d be far more externally motivated than me. And they’re both good things,

Derrick – Just got to know how to tweak it.

Kris – Well, and also, I agree with you that a long, whole six year medical school commitment is tough if you’re externally motivated because the goal is so far away, which suits internally motivated people because they actually have a six year pig in mud ecstasy where they can roll around in their studies and feel amazing because they they’re getting a battery charge by either ticking things off the list or realizing that dedicating themselves to something like it’s all motivational.

But if you’re externally motivated by something like an adrenaline rush or something creative or spontaneous or whatever, that’s a long adrenaline rush. You know, like it’s like base jumping for six years. That’s very difficult to maintain, like, physiologically. And so that’s why you would have naturally felt like the instinct would have been to delay study and then get the adrenaline to study and complete, because that would have been how you coped.

Derrick – I mean, that’s that’s part of the reason. I think one of the other reasons was at that particular time, I wasn’t really interested, and that was that I had a huge impact.

Kris – Yeah. And I think I mean, I was I was interested I was fascinated by the human body. I would say it could have been any subject. And because I became and I’m going to say achievement junkie, but it was so private, like I withheld my results in medical school.

I never told anyone what I did there. It wasn’t in the paper. I worked out a way that if you didn’t show your student ID in one exam, they wouldn’t publish yours.

Derrick – Oh, really? I did. Because I remember I remember after every exam with everyone go look in the paper to find their results.

Kris – I was never there.

Derrick – Oh, all right. I didnt’ know that.

Kris – Yeah, so yeah. I mean a few of my closest friends knew and if we were sitting in the same tutorial, that kind of would have got an idea that I was knowing what was going on. But I never had my results published. So my achievement junkiness was not so anyone else could see. But I felt probably like I wouldn’t have been enough of a person if I didn’t reach my goals. And that I think the problem, if you’re super internally motivated, if you set yourself these goals, which are really difficult and you don’t know how to grieve.

Right, right. Right. Then the only choices to succeed at these impossible tasks, getting a first class honours in medical school was, hey, I’m going to i did a shitload of work, right?

Derrick – Oh, yeah, totally. You know, I saw that. I saw that. I saw.

Kris – Yeah. And but I was putting a lot of pressure on myself because the option was the other the other choice would have been to not get the high distinctions, which was to me a fail.

And I didn’t know how to experience loss or grief. So I just wasn’t hope I wasn’t able to accept that was an option. And so this is why if I went on a driving trip with some of my friends, I would study in the backseat of the car. I would study all through the holidays for the next year. I wouldn’t say that was a good thing necessarily, looking back, but that’s what I did.

Derrick – Yeah, that’s why It got your results and it worked for you. And I’m thinking that this I mean, this level of discipline, you obviously displayed that and did that also when you did dancing, because obviously that required a lot of continuous discipline.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah. So I was fortunate. I did most of my dance education in Townsville and then moved to Brisbane for the last two years. The dance school I went to in Townsville, they had a scholarship for boys, for the classical ballet. At least it was no cost.

So it was great. And my family wasn’t rolling in money so I could attend all these classes. And so there was the opportunity for it was there with the classes and then being someone who was very good at visualizing things in my mind, I do. I would do a lot of extra practice just by lying on my floor of my bedroom with the lights out, imagining my body doing different things.

Derrick – Wow.

Kris – And so when it came to doing the movement, I had rehearsed it in my mind so many times that I knew kinetically.

Derrick – It’s amazing to do things. How much time would you actually spend, like visualizing in your bed compared to actually doing it? Like what percentage?

Kris – 80 percent visual, 20 percent doing?

Derrick – Wow!

Kris – a lot. A lot of it was visual.

Derrick – That is crazy.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – You know, and that that’s really interesting because, you know, there have been studies where they’ve done these tests, you know, like with basketball as sportspeople. I’ve read that. Yeah. Yeah. Well I did actual physical practice. That’s just physical. Another group with physical and mental. And then I think that they had another variation.

Derrick – But basically they found the people that did had the visual component did a lot better. Yes.

Kris – Yeah. And I agree that if you looked at a population that would work, they would if you kind of flushed out the dynamics of each group, they would be outliers. And there are some people who just did not that did nothing for them. And in fact, they might have got frustrated that they weren’t at the gym or something like there will be some people that just cannot sit in a room in the dark by themselves and imagine shooting a hoop.

They can’t. And then there was some. It’s like, oh, my gosh, I could do this for 12 hours a day and then I can walk around the hoop in my mind and I can imagine my leg stretching at the right time and the kind of stillness I’ll have when I shoot. Like, so I do think it’s really up to the individual to work out what works for them, not just to read a book and go, Oh, I’m supposed to read.

I’m going to you know, that guy in that podcast said, visualize 80 percent of his time. And now I’m going to do that because that’s how we succeeded. And then it just worked for me. Yeah. And I always knew it did, I guess, because I did, you know, I did succeed. And well, some of these are indeed succeed in inverted commas. If you can’t see this, like whatever success means, you know, like I was hitting goals and it worked for me.

But that came so naturally to me. No one ever said, go on, you’re going go and sit in room and go and sit in your room and reflect about your dance.

Derrick – OK, so it’s very intuitive. And it wasn’t something you got from your parents or anything like,

Kris – look, I may have the concept of reflection I might have got from my dad because he’s very introspective. And so he used to sit for hours on the balcony looking at the stars at night. And so maybe I saw him doing that. Yeah. I mean, I didn’t know what he was doing because he didn’t tell me. But I it’s possible, you know, nature, nurture, it’s possible.

I saw a little bit of that happening. But no, I genuinely think I was just that kind of kid. I didn’t play outside much because I was playing in my head. Yeah, I was. I was. And there was nothing adrenaline junkie about it. I mean, so we were different kids, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like so different. But that’s so interesting.

Derrick – So your parents really you were just an internally driven person and you didn’t really need any one or any one to really guide you or help you be disciplined. You just kind of like that. And you just went for it.

Kris – Yeah,

Derrick – You worked it out.

Kris – Yeah, I had. I mean, I would say I needed parenting for some other things I was very bad at. Setting boundaries with other people, I didn’t know how to do that, I couldn’t say no to people.

I was worried about things being too hostile. If I said no, I wouldn’t be upset and whatever. And my mom, I would say, was like I kind of like a a very gregarious and kind Lioness like she was very protective of me to the point where if she saw that someone was not taking advantage of me necessarily, but doing the wrong thing by me or whatever, she would swoop in. And I didn’t I didn’t know how to defend myself against situations like that.

So that’s what I needed. Parenting for, I guess, was to actually have a protector because I was a bit that was something I learnt later on about how to say, no, that’s OK with me and actually to be OK  with that. Yeah. And not like, oh my gosh, they’re going to feel so bad. It’s actually it’s actually OK, Kris, to have boundaries now that he is like, yeah, but so no one ever said like study.

No, I definitely can remember. My mom knew I had a very active mind and she used to give me like little activity books to fill out even like before school. I still love doing these things and perhaps I don’t even remember this much, but if I showed her, that would finish. She might have said, Oh, good boy, I don’t know, there might have been some kind of message that, oh, if you achieve I’m a good boy.

I might have let that somehow. But it definitely was not a force thing. No one ever said to me, go and study. There was no pressure on me to succeed academically or even in any way. No, it just it never came up. Wow. And I know other kids had very different experiences. Yeah. So for me, I actually had the freedom just to explore my creativity and I was just naturally a kind slash shy child at school.

You did well. And so I don’t I don’t know if there was a lot of effort necessary to keep me on a track because I was just there already.

Derrick – Very good.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – Oh, all right. So let’s come back to you’ve finished medical. You’re working as a doctor.

Kris – Oh, okay. Yes. And now you’ve what made you move into pathology?

Derrick – Because, you know, that’s a very I don’t know.

Kris – Yeah, that’s a great question. So for those of you that don’t understand. Well, I think a lot of people think medical school, your other GP or surgeon, and they kind of don’t even maybe realize there’s other things. And that’s okay, because I know nothing about lots of other industries. And if you know more than that, then forgive me for, you know, assuming anything but.

So I’m a pathologist, is a medical doctor, a medical specialist whose specialty in my case is looking down a microscope, diagnosing and confirming different disease processes, writing reports so that other medical colleagues can decide on the appropriate way to to navigate the patient’s health care. And in some cases, it’s actually in individualistic where we can say this, this cancer will or won’t respond to that drug. So that kind of thing. Pathology was a subject in medical school, almost a bit like a science, I’d say.

I don’t know whether. Many people studied it and thought, well, that’s a career path, and I never really thought about that too, because I even think we were groomed to either be or surgeons or physicians like that with the kind of the standard three things that people talked about a lot from from mentors and tutors and so. You know, I’m cast out into the world as an intern at a hospital, and then I actually felt a bit like a round peg in a square hole the entire time.I probably felt like that in medical school, too, but because I was just so much into the studying that I didn’t really notice.

But looking around, I just felt like I didn’t belong. And progressively I just felt very foreign in that role as a human and kind of like the whole trapped in the wrong body kind of concept, you know, like trapped in the wrong career. I guess this whole concept of going to work every day and walking around the wards, it just it just didn’t sit well with me at all. And there were two pathologists in the hospital that I worked at who I would see clinical pathological meetings. And sometimes I would take specimens to the pathologist for urgent analysis. And they just both really impressed me with how knowledgeable they were and how calm they were. There was just something about the way they were operating that I felt a real kinship with.

And so I said to them, I’m really interested in this. And they helped mentor me a little bit and they spoke to the right people and. I mentioned before, like with dance, I had trouble knowing what the 20 steps would be. I mean, I think these people were helpful in that they showed me where the steps were. So it’s like if you step here, this is how you do it. And so I wasn’t even in a metropolitan city by this stage, but I kind of worked out then how to end up doing pathology. But by that stage, I’d realized that there probably wasn’t anything else I wanted to do in medicine.

Derrick – So not psychiatry like.

Kris – No, I, I, I’m I continue to be fascinated by human beings. And a passion project of mine is reading and studying and learning about human behavior. And I attend lots of causes and I’m being a mentor to a psychologist and psychiatrist and etc. and I think they’re amazing people. It just wasn’t the right fit for me. Certainly not and certainly not in the hospital scenario.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – For me, I. In my limited view of that job in in the clinical setting, I saw it as categorising someone as either md, bad sad or glad, and there was a treatment path of all of that.

And I just thought that’s that’s simplistic. Like, these are people that have issues. And I don’t I mean, yeah, that probably is how it’s done in a way. But I, I just thought it just seemed to be so limited for me and I wasn’t sure that I saw a lot of empathy. That was my experience anyway. And pathology, I thought was very appealing. And I applied to become a pathologist by ticking the box, but I had no other plan and my other plan was actually to leave medicine.

Derrick – Oh, really?

Kris – Yeah, I never really saw one.

Derrick – Was this how far into the game?

Kris – I was halfway through my second year of only.

Derrick – Oh wow, seriously considering, actually going back to dance or?

Kris – probably probably actually to music composition. All right. Yeah. Or some kind of performing arts school or something like that. Yeah. I just really felt like I was on the wrong path.

Derrick – Sure.

Kris – And so I cast my dice into the wind. I don’t think that’s the right term. But I applied for a pathology job and I was kind of expecting not to get one because I wasn’t in the big city where all the pathology training places were. So nobody really knew me in the industry. And I said to myself, if I don’t get a job, then it will be a sign, you know, that I’ll do something else. And I was a.

The two jobs, so it’s like, well, now I’ve got to choose one. So it kind of worked out in my back. I ended up doing pathology more, as I said, because the job was given to me. But I really wouldn’t have been stuck at it for 10 years, you know, just beating at the door of the pathologist wanting to do it. I would have said, no, it’s a sign that it’s not going to work for me.

Derrick – So how do you feel now that you’ve been doing it for, I don’t know, how does it help? Yeah, well, I started pathology training in 1999. 1999. Yeah. So what’s that? I don’t know. Math. Twenty twenty three years. Wow. Like that. Yeah. I think, I think in the field of medicine it’s the best fit for me. Right. It matches my introvert calm demeanor. And I’m not someone who needs doctor.

Kris – You saved my life that right. That stuff does nothing for me. Yeah. I don’t need my scientific staff to call me doctor. They know I am and that they call me that because it’s a bit more like a work protocol for some reason. But I don’t need to hear it and I really like. So the parts of pathology that I love is it’s finding patterns among the chaos. It’s essentially I’m going to an art critic of the medical world where I’m looking at visual images and saying, oh, that that’s like a Monet, that’s like a Renoir.

Kris – It’s going to be heading this way. And no to consumers are the same, just like No. Two people are the same. Yeah, but I do have that Good mind that can find patterns and things so I can see that that is something I can do well in my job is to look at an unknown thing and think let’s think from first principles. What could this be? And so from that point of view, I love the stability. I really love the intellectual aspect.

I love that I can help people. It certainly doesn’t take all my boxes as a human being. And I learnt that a bit the hard way. But I’m very grateful for the job and I’ve made some modifications in the amount of hours I’ll be working in the job very recently. So I’m going to be cutting down to three days a week because I want to pursue other parts of me, I guess. But it will be in my life or, I don’t know, another ten years, maybe something like that.

Derrick – Yeah, I mean, I’m sure now that you’ve done it for so long, it’s it’s such a it’s just so easy to to like, see things and.

Kris – Yeah. Well, I’d say like 95 percent of all once, you know, once you’ve been doing something for so long, 95 percent the same. Yeah. And I quite like that. I like that sort of like riding a bike and or riding a bike in the high gear  just like and making progress and helping people.

And I there are some things I don’t know and I dare I say to be most people in my profession would have the same view. It’s like, oh, I no ones seen something like this. And so working from First Principles is interesting, too. So I know it is it is a it’s it’s a part of me that is good for me.

Derrick – Yes.

Kris – It’s not all there is to me, but it’s definitely something that keeps me off the streets. And it’s a very secure, stable industry which is good for me because I’m not the adrenalin guy. I don’t have the skills. So I’m learning. I can realize there’s a lot to be said for that. But put me in a chaotic scene in the real world and I’m a little bit like stunned mullet. Yeah. So pathology suits me that there is some predictability there,

Derrick – Understand. Yeah. Now one of the things that I know that you’ve been doing with your pathology job, you’ve been taken on the role.Yeah. In a communications method. Yes. Yes. Tell us about that.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah, sure. So. This is a great example of serendipity and synchronicity, really, that I am enamored with, and it’s just tiny little back story. Maybe three or four years into my consulting in their large firm that I work for, I was asked to participate on our big executive committee, which is where people get together and I guess decide how to steer a ship in the certain direction. I guess that’s the main thing. And sure, we are aligning with that mission statement, etc. and for whatever reason, I felt like I wasn’t important enough to be doing this role. And why would someone listen to me, which is all self sabotage bullshit. But I was doing that to myself and then I ended up stepping down from that role. So I just didn’t feel like it fitted with where I was at. And at that right at the tail end of that, my CEO decided to enlist the executive team in this three day, three day workshop.

And I thought it was going to be about management. And I almost I never I’ve never done this before, much like a sick day, because the thought of going to management seminar to me would be like sticking knitting needles in my knots or something like that. But I went because I don’t like to, you know, rock the boat unnecessarily. And the psychologist that was training us, the content he was teaching me just made a lot of sense to me.

Not only did I understand my own little quirks a lot more, but I understood my mom and my dad and how they’re so different and just even understand relationships like romantic and friendship wise that had fallen apart. And I understood why that happened. My role in that, the role that other people played, et cetera. So it all just started to crystallize and I started reading a lot about it of my own bat.

And about a year later, my CEO came to see me and said, we’d like to have this model on board as how kind of, you know of our intelligence, of how we think about human behavior and etc. and we would like you to be the in-house trainer. And so this was an incredible gift from the universe, from my CEO, because it placed me in a position where I was actually able to exercise my love for human behavior in a way that I could still maintain the job I had.

And because it was coming from the top down, my CEO spoke to people, people, people. So it was an official part of my job. So it wasn’t like I was trying to get out of my job so I could do this other job. It was all encompassed under the same umbrella.

Derrick – So what was this? What was this method or this philosophy?

Kris – Yeah. So the the the model is called process communication model PCM for short and the principles, I guess.

Really give skills for all the four quadrants of emotional intelligence, so amazing skills for self-awareness, to understand how I take what my strengths are, what my vulnerabilities or opportunities for growth are. How I’m motivated what I’m motivated by all those kinds of things, which I guess you could. Attend, lots of seminars, etc., but it just made it also clear and then self motivation, how can I motivate myself? How can I charge my batteries?

How can I accept that responsibility? How can I tell other people what I need in a way that they can understand? It’s to other awareness how other people tick? Oh, it’s a different person to me. How can I look at him objectively and see that? And what what clues can he say or do that can tell me the different ways that he would want to be communicated with? Because as it turns out, not everyone wants what I want.

And then other motivation. Let’s say let’s say you’re my colleague or you’re my underling or you’re my boss or whatever, like, how can I charge your batteries? How can I help top up your fuel so that you are effective as well? And all those four quadrants are lined up. And for me, PKM is the only model I know that hits all of those four right on the money. Some are really good at, you know, placing you in a category.

You’re this color or you’re these four facilities, etc. But I’m not sure that they write at like other motivation or something like that. I just mean, this is the missing link for that. And the the model works is like a I guess it can be predictive about knowing how a certain person is and then how they might behave when they’re stressed, but also postdictive. You can look back on a situation and retrospectively now it makes sense why that happened, what kind of learn from that.

You can listen to the way that people package the information together and understand a lot about what’s happening underneath the flip top lid. So that’s sort of the essence of it. And there are some great books written by really, really clever psychologists that are available now in PCM. There’s quite a few doctorate’s that have been studied.

Derrick – Is this from America or.

Kris – Yeah, yeah. There was a psychologist called Taibi Kahler and he did a lot of his research and studies in the 70s, made a couple of really important publications around that time, and they did a lot of work with NASA to fine tune some of the intelligence. And then and then I think from their. Pretty soon after that, Bill Clinton heard about this model and the psychologist became the psycho demographer, Bill’s electoral campaigns and the combination of NASA being involved and then Bill Clinton being involved.

Kris – This is like high profile enough for a lot of companies to want the intelligence in a in an intelligible form that you could attend a seminar. And that’s how the seminar ended up being involved. That way, you could learn the skills to apply in your interactions with people and in your interactions internally with yourself. I guess.

Derrick – What would you say, having learned that, what were some of the big aha’s that you got to share?

Kris – Heaps, Yes, Just how different we all are. And. There’s a cartoon where there’s two people standing and looking at this number written in the dirt or whatever, and one of them saying that’s a six. And the other person is looking at it from the other angle and saying, that’s a nine. And they’re both refusing to acknowledge the other person’s view is valid. So that’s one of the AHA moments is actually there are lots of different ways to look at a situation and extract stuff and someone else’s view of it is as valid for them as my view is of the same situation.

For me, there may be different and this plays out in so many ways, like I’m sure a lot of relationship conflicts happen because of this. Well, I think having taught 450 people now and listening to them chat in the tiebreaks, this is like countless examples of people saying, oh, my gosh, now I understand my partner for the first time, like, yeah. So I get that kind of understanding that my view is really subjective. It’s not objective, but someone else’s view is is subjective, but it’s also, it seems objective to them as well.

And so just learning how they’re seeing the world is the first step to actually connect with someone effectively seeing what they’re seeing, what they want to extract out of the world, and understanding that it could be different. And what I love about this model is it’s it’s it’s almost like a blueprint you can overlay on any situation. So it it it kind of demystifies all that stuff. You can rapidly kind of learn about how someone perceives the world and the kinds of things that will be gleaning out of situations and where the stressful points might be for them.

Another aha moment, I guess, was I guess I I’m someone that’s always got a lot of energy from solitude and. Although my dad was someone that liked solitudes, typically people that enjoy solitude don’t talk about it because by definition, it’s solitude. And so when I kind of was exercising that part of myself in a big way, I mean, I was always important to me, but in my 30s, it was something I craved, really.

I thought there was something wrong with me because not a lot of people were talking about it. And I wondered if I was depressed and I wasn’t. But I felt a little burnt out, I guess, because all I was thinking about was having times to be alone and learning that that was actually a valid way that people can get energy. Actually, it was so enlightening for me. It sort of gave me permission to be myself.

I guess it’s OK to get solitude. It’s actually OK to tell people that’s what I’m doing. Yeah. So that was another aha moment. I guess also being aware of my, I can say blind blindspots opportunities for growth like I unlike unlike you, I’m guessing from what you told me before, just observing you. I’m, I’m just not someone that sees an opportunity. Walk by and go Oh like that’s what I want. And then boom boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

For me, I’ll see an opportunity and then think about it for 20 years. And then usually it kind of comes around in my world again and I go, now I’m ready because I’ve been reflecting about this for 20 years. And then I like surprises people about how maybe effective I am at it. But I’ve actually been thinking about it the 20 years.

That’s why it’s actually quite good at it at the time. And yeah, so I can think of lots of times where opportunities have passed me by, but because I’m so blind to them, I don’t see them.

Derrick – Yeah,

Kris – I don’t. A classic example, my global CEO. Of my company, he works in Sydney, met me very briefly when I was down there teaching the side project of PCM to some of the executive leaders there, and he came in and he asked people I asked a few people in the room what I thought the seminar.

And I was getting rave reviews, which was lovely. And then this guy said to. Someone else in the business, how do I get this guy over to Germany? Because we have lapsed and then off he left. Now, the thought at the time of me going to train internationally was so exciting, yes, but I didn’t even notice the opportunity because I thought, well, he’s not said it to me, so he doesn’t want me to.

I was also nebulous and ill. Maybe about six months later, I was like, huh, that was an opportunity to actually say, let’s make this happen.

Like, yeah, OK, you go, because I would have done it.

Yeah, but and there’s so many times where opportunity has been right in front of me and I’ve not really known how to handle it because I’m just it’s a blind spot for me really. And I mean, I think you’re more naturally gifted at harnessing those kinds of things. So you might be looking at me asking what is wrong with you? But I really it’s just doesn’t come natural to me.

Derrick – So what’s the what’s the strategy now that you’re aware of this blind spot? Yeah. How do you get yourself up and be more receptive to these opportunities when they do show?

Kris – Well, I guess I notice it now. Yeah. Like, my goal is to actually sometimes leap before I think sometimes and allow myself that allow myself that I have enough skills that I can land on a foreign object if I don’t land where I think I’m going to land like I’m learning how to do this now. And so yeah, just like saying yes, if it feels good rather than saying I’ll think about it and then taking three getting more out ahead.

Yeah. Just in the moment it doesn’t come naturally to me, but I can see, you know, times are ticking and there are things that all through my life could have happened had I have grasped the opportunity, heaps of things.

Derrick – That’s really interesting to me because from our earlier conversation, you came across as some very intuitive, very knowing you went with your gut in terms of that’s what I want to do. But then here we have a situation where things are being presented, but you’re not being able to register them. Yes. Well, if you do see them, you your mind gets in the way totally.

It’s about how how is that. Yeah. That dichotomy there work.

Kris – Well, yeah. You know how you said you said to me also, you know, when did you decide to go to medical school, etc.. I would say I didn’t because I would say my guidance counsellor told me to speak to a psychologist and then the psychologist told me to speak to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist told me to go to medical school. I didn’t decide any of that,

Derrick – OK

Kris – It was told to me I was directed to do those things, whether I think I mean, no one said like it wasn’t like a decree, but that it’s I took the direction from other people. It wasn’t like I sought opportunity to go to medical school.

Derrick – Sure.

Kris – No, not at all.

Derrick – Well, I think that’s probably because we were younger then. And we give authority to people saying, you probably know better. So I should follow.

Kris – I yes. I think it’s more than that for me because, yeah, I’m so directable. And that’s something I’ve had to double down to. Like, I would have been that kind of kid if someone had said, you know, do this. This is this is I would have done it, OK.

Derrick – Oh, so you’re very direct about. Yes. So something that you absolutely really know, e.g. the dancing then. That is a that’s only the the only time when you’re not directable.

Kris – Oh that’s it. No, I’m very directable but I mean I’m like OK, I’m a mixed so now I am, I’m super, I’m super delectable. If someone put something in front of me and says, Kris, this would be good for you. Yeah.

OK, like you’ve imagined it. OK, all I can then I can instantly visualize it and go, yeah, I can see what you’re seeing. Right. So then yes, I’ll take, I’ll you know, basically the car will be put in front of me and I’ll go. Yeah, I can see how it unfold.

It does. And I can be very internally motivated to achieve goals. But brand new things that come up quickly know that

Derrick – You need time. You need oh, you even need time or you need someone to be very strong about this.

Kris – My instinct is to need time. I think that’s a myth. I think it is because I think other people get by just fine from doing first. But my way of seeing it is that I need time, right?

Derrick – Yeah,

Kris – That’s what I feel comfortable that way. Yeah. And I like to imagine all the scenarios and workshop things in my mind and even like deciding part time I’ve been talking about, I apologise to all my friends and my work colleagues.

I’ve been talking about this for two years. OK, it wasn’t like I just you know what? This is going to be the best thing for me, boom, because I could to work full time again, like I needed to walk through that scenario from every angle before I left.

Derrick – OK.

Kris – Yeah, that’s what I’m like. So, yeah, opportunities. I’m not great at grasping. I’m getting better and I think it’s finding that. I think it was Aristotle talked about the golden mean where you know, if you were just the opportunity junkie you might be considered reckless, where you were just grabbing everything and then just I mean, it was an exciting life.

But there’s a crash and burn, I think, in the. And in that scenario, I don’t know, but but the opposite of reckless might be like, I don’t know, someone that has no inertia, that’s full of inertia and just doesn’t do anything ever. I think for me, it’s like what works best for me. I can see that. If something exciting happens saying, yeah, like that’s actually going to be a good thing to me.

So I’m to answer your question, you asked me and I’m sorry I’m taking such a long time, what I’m using with that information is actually starting to make a point of noticing opportunities and just thinking, you know what, let’s just do it, OK?

Derrick – That’s great.

Kris – Yeah, yeah. And then I’ll figure it out. And I’ve done that a few times now where I haven’t had a fully formed plan, but I’ve just leapt on the first step.

Derrick – Awesome.

Kris – Yeah. And this is very new for me, Derrick, like I’d say, maybe the last two or three years, late last year or two.

Derrick – So what’s one of those things that you’ve done?

Kris – Um. Now I’m going to reflect, OK, I saw a house up in the hinterlands, which I really loved, and I bought it. And you might think, oh, wow, that’s really exciting, Chris. No, no, no, that’s good. But, you know, like it houses don’t just sit on the market for, like, the individual house, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And they passed me by. And this was something it was always something I had visualized doing, I guess. But I acted on that much quicker than I normally would have.

Derrick – Yes.

Kris – Yeah. And so that’s an example.

I’m going to park that in my back brain and think of it as anything else.

But oh no, I was going to say buying my new MacBook Pro, but I didn’t think about that for a long time now that they are going to be many examples, because this is a very, very foreign thing for me. Yeah, but yeah, I am very aware that I’m open to doing that now, whereas it wasn’t I can’t even think of anything I did in my first 30 years, which was in any way relating to grabbing onto an opportunity.

Derrick – So nothing, everything was very well thought out. Yes. Yes.

Kris – Either that or someone had said to me you’d be really good at or here’s how to do this. And I go, oh yes, OK. Like, yeah, but never would I have no. There were heaps of examples where I can look back in retrospect, opportunities went past me. I didn’t even see them. I can see them now, but I didn’t see them then. So that’s the next chapter for me is just to say yes to things that I want to do.

Not a lot to please people. Yeah, not doing that and then just figuring out what happens afterwards.

Derrick – Now, one thing that did happen very recently, of course, was that you had a sabbatical and you and you indulged back into your dancing. Yes. Yes. That’s very you did some great stuff there. So, yeah, I was really exciting.

Kris – I can and this is another example of it not being an opportunity. When I tell you how it happened, you’ll go, oh yeah, that did fall in your lap.

So I had been so I was teaching dance in medical school, which I think I said a little earlier.

And then when I started my specialty training, I was like, this is so much content, I need to be a nerd here. And so I kind of shelved all of my extracurricular pursuits. Aside from writing music, I kind of keep that up in mind as I like a passion project. I turned 40 and I was one of those moments where I was in a plane just reflecting about my last 40 years and thinking about who I wanted to be when I was a kid, and I realized my childhood dream of dancing professionally had been gone.

And I wept. And probably, you know, I said earlier I wasn’t very good at grieving. I actually did a bit of the grieving of what I was probably supposed to do when I was 16, you know, because I was going to do this thing. I didn’t actually felt the grief. And it was I guess it was a nice thing to release, but I kind of accepted that I wasn’t going to. To perform professionally around about six months before that, I had said to a wonderful, vivacious friend of mine that I was thinking of starting to teach dance again because I realized I was missing it.

And so she was the missing link for me. And she I was in the right place at the right time. And she connected me with some of my former students. And I was I was teaching very casually on the side. I found a studio on the Internet, random Google search and a tap dance studio Brisbane, but been met. This person I’d never met before heard of before. He gave me the keys, signed the contracts, et cetera, et.

As it happens, this gentleman name, his bill had been contacted by Queensland Ballet to restage a very, very successful British production of Strictly Gershwin for the Australian scene with the Queensland Ballet. So he was going to be the top choreographer and one of the two main leads, and he needed another male co-star. And I was, I guess, under his nose because I was hiring his studio. I had no idea he was looking for someone. And he said to me.

Pretty much after I came back from that flight where I was feeling the grief, he said to me, you know, this is the thing. And I when he when he rang me to tell me about the role, I thought he was ringing me to chat about Gershwin music because he knew I played piano. All right. So I wasn’t really sure what he was telling me about this.

And then when he said, you know, I need a male co-star and would you be interested? And I was just like, because I’m not very good at catching opportunities. I was like, well, I’m going to say yes, but I don’t know how it’s all going to work because I have this full time job and I’ve never danced professionally. And I’m now forty to forty one, I think.

But that I guess was an example of the opportunity coming by. And I was like, I just have to say yes. Yeah. And I have to say yes. Now I did some self sabotage after that. Like at one point I was about to ask my workplace for the time off. And before I even asked, I told myself it’s going to be too difficult for them to spare me for seven weeks. It would have been for the Australian show.

So I asked ask them and I rang him and I said, look, I’m so sorry. I have to cancel. And then I put the phone down and about five minutes later, I rang him back and I said, forget that guy. who just said that I’m self sabotaging. I haven’t even asked. I apologize. I won’t do that again. I think I’m just scared of actually living out a childhood dream and it actually happening. And I don’t really know what to do with that.

And so I just panicked. I won’t do that again. And I didn’t do that again.

Derrick – And so, yeah, I was incredibly honest of you to say.

Kris – Oh, yeah. Oh, thank you. Well, I liked yeah, I, I like to declare my authentic experience with people so that they know where I’m at because it was a huge deal for me to, to actually live out my childhood dream, which I didn’t do. You know, when I as I said, I kind of stalled when I was 16 and I was suddenly at the age of 42 to suddenly kind of put on the shoes again, like,

Derrick – How old were the other Co dancers?

Kris – Yeah, yeah. I was the oldest person in the cast.

Derrick – Wow.

They were people who were in their early 20s because I worked I used to do this thing where I met people was like, oh, let’s do a fun thing. Like that’s. What were you doing in, like, 1986?

They were like I wasn’t born then. Like, I hate this guy. I was the oldest person in the entire cast. There was a retired principal dancer with the Australian Ballet who was now working with Queensland Ballet, is like a teacher observer. And he was in the cast. I was like he came out of retirement to do a role. And he was a lovely guy and he would chat to me side. So I saw a side room of rehearsals and I used to lament a bit about feeling out of out of water.

No one knew I wasn’t a professional dancer like the. Well, no, I that’s not true. The director from London didn’t know I wasn’t a professional dancer. So I was I felt like I was like incognito. And I thought I was going to be discovered at any moment and kicked out. And I was chatting to him about this and he said, no, no, Kris, you don’t have milage. And I was like, what do you mean?

He said, well, yes, so he said, Yes, I’m in my 30s, but my joints have had it. Oh, you don’t have models. You’re good. You don’t have dance of 42 year old joints because you didn’t do anything for fourteen years.

Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. Yeah. And so I kind of like well that really helped me because I, I did feel a little bit like I’m like the grandfather in the company. No one said that to me. This was just my.

Derrick – Yeah, yeah. But your joints and everything was so.

Kris – Well in theory. In theory I did. Yeah. Yes it was. I did. I have a friend who owns a professional sports medicine practice like a massuese etc. and I was seeing him as well to help me weekly.

But yeah, it was a wonderful experience. Living out a childhood dream was incredible for me,

Derrick – yes.

Kris – Like, I don’t I don’t know if I don’t know if all kids have a childhood dream like I did, but it was all I thought about really was dance music, performing, writing, music, writing, choreographing a show like having a dance studio. Like I was very much focused on this. And so to be immersed in the industry. To not really audition, I just plopped in my lap, um. And it was the other amazing thing was the role required tap dance, which was what I was teaching, but it was very balletic in its in its artistry.

It was basically like 1920s, you know, the golden age of Hollywood, kind of almost like that kind of movement. It needed a lot of poise. And I could rely on my intense ballet training for that to carry my body. And I it really I could tell it suited me like Plock. You know, if you wanted me to have ripped jeans and my hat backwards and dance nonsense and rubbish, I could make the sound, but I would look a bit daft, I think, because I’m just not that kind of guy.

But if you put me in it to put me in a tale’s and some Gershwin music in the background and tell me to try and look sophisticated, I can hit that nail on the head. So it really was the perfect role for me at a time where I had long service leave. I wasn’t too old, you know, and it was one of the highlights of my life.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Derrick – I remember seeing you are on TV. I remember seeing you posting up stuff like that. Oh, yeah. So that would be very exciting. You’re like all over on the media.

Kris – Well, I’m very I’m quite an introvert. So that was all of a surprise to me, like being interviewed on Channel seven and the ABC was doing a story as well. Like I was a bit like, OK, we’re doing this like I’m not.

Despite that, I was performing in front of, you know, over thousand people a night. I’m not someone that’s like, yeah, I’m seen come on, world look at me like I’m not like that at all. In fact, I don’t even remember the first performance. I think I just I remember standing side by side stage feeling really comfortable that I had done this for myself. But as soon as I went on stage, I was on autopilot.

I don’t remember anything about it at all. It’s true. I’ve seen the footage. I’m like, oh, wow, it’s good. I don’t remember how

Derrick – lucky they filmed it,

Kris – But I didn’t really. Yeah, I wasn’t like, yeah, people are seeing me. In fact, I would say that was something I had to overcome. Yeah. I probably had to accept that that was okay for me to be seen. I think I that’s one of the reasons I didn’t pursue dance when I was 16. I think it was a self-sabotage thing. I think I kind of felt like Kris is supposed to hide. You’re supposed to just run the background in a way.

Yeah, no, that was sort of percolating in the background, I think. So I kind of pushed through that through that show. Yeah, that’s right. For my personal. Yes. Yeah,

Derrick – Absolutely. Yeah. Now you actually won some awards for it as well, right?

Kris – Oh well I was nominated. . . There’s an industry I knew nothing about this industry, but there’s the Australian Dance Awards are held each year and I was nominated for Australia’s most outstanding professional dancer. Wow, that’s amazing. I didn’t win. But that’s amazing.

Derrick – It’s amazing to me. Oh, yes. Yes, it is crazy.

Kris – Oh, because I saw that. I saw the list of people and I’m like, oh, my gosh, these are people that I see like these because, you know, I like going to watch shows and like, I know these people.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – It was incredible to be to see my name there. And because I, I felt like I was doing a good job, but because I had never performed professionally, I really didn’t know how I’d go.

And for me, that was it was actually good for two reasons. It helped me validate that it was okay to accept that I did the role and it was OK. And coincidentally, the week that I received that nomination, I had been asked by the UK director to to do the same role for the US premiere. And I received again another example where I said yes right away.

Derrick – OK, you did that.

Kris – Yes,

Derrick – I’m glad you did.

Kris – I did that. Yeah. I did have 11 months to prepare for the performances after I said yes, but yes, I said yes right away, which is unusual for me. But I did.

Derrick – That’s awesome.

Kris – Yeah. So when I said yes and eventually that I needed to get international, I needed to get a what they call an alien visa for a specialist individual or something like that to justify them not employing an American because, you know, they don’t have tap dances over there.

So, you know, that’s irony clearly. So I had to document that I had some kind of award or been nominated for an award. And they said, you know, for example, like an Oscar, a Tony, a Grammy. Yeah. And I’m like, I’m a medical specialist. Looks under a microscope all day. I ain’t got any of that stuff.

And I almost thought, well, this is the end of the road for me. I’m not going to get my visa. And then I was nominated for the award. And so I could say, wow, yes, I have been nominated. Yeah. An Australian equivalent, I guess, you know, in the in the bubble of dance in Australia. So, yes, not only did the I guess the nominations say to me, you know, Chris, you were you’re enough to do the role.

It helped me more than enough maybe. I don’t know. But it then helped me tick a box for the immigration interview I had to have in Sydney to get my visa.

Derrick – It feels like it’s all about ticking boxes.

Kris – Yeah, well, I mean, I guess some things have to be about ticking boxes, right? Because I can’t just say, oh, the UK director thinks I’m good. Like, I don’t know, like, well, I, I don’t know what would have happened if I hadn’t said I can’t fulfill that criteria. But it was very clear that that was what was required. And that’s when I thought, oh, this is silly.

Like what am I doing, Chris? I’m trying to pretend to be someone I’m not. Yeah. But anyway,

Derrick – yeah, I mean, you did that, you did all that stuff for that strictly Gershwin. So I’m I would be thinking that you would probably have had more opportunities having such an outstanding debut.

Kris – I had, but I wouldn’t have noticed it. Oh yeah.

Derrick – You think that they were presented but. Oh yeah. Yeah. You just didn’t pick up on them.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah. And I’m not at all so. I would definitely do another show. I would love to do the same show again. I would love siri’s listening. I would love to do this. I would love to do that show again. I think it needs to be seen again. And, yeah, I adore the show. And it’s amazing. There’s been talks of an Australian tour sort of OK. I would be very, very open and hoping to do that.

And when I did the show in the USA, the company that I work for there, you know, they stayed in the woods where we’d love to have you back if we do it again. So, you know, like, I’m open to do it. Definitely. What I learned about the industry is that. I love stability and it does not give that no, yeah. And so one of the gifts for me from stepping out of the world of medicine was appreciating it when I came back.

Yeah. I felt it felt so strange going back to work. So it’s only been two months, but a lot happened and

Derrick – I can imagine.

Kris – And as I’ve discovered the artistic world, it’s very emotional, which suits me just fine, like lots of hugs and people talking about feelings, which is what I’m about whatever. So I was kind of almost like back home. Yeah.

And then I remember coming back to work at a somewhat a lot of my colleagues saw the show and some of my surgical referrers. It’s was just amazing. I remember someone that saw the show, a colleague of mine, and I got back to work, said to me, what time is your you know, your frozen section that you’re doing with that Seargent this afternoon? Like, that’s the first thing they said to me. And I’m like, oh, OK.

That’s right. We’re back in logic. And we kind of talk about time structure and hitting, hitting, you know, like all that kind of stuff, like analysis kind of world. I kind of left that for a bit when I came back into it. I just felt so strange, so strange going back to it. Yeah. But it was it it gave me an appreciation for the stability of my job. And I am someone that likes structure and predictability, I guess because I’m not good at flying and whatever the term is flying by the seat of my pants, you know, I’m not just good at, like all myself, unusual situation, adapt.

I’m not good at that.

Derrick – I think maybe you just haven’t had enough positive experiences of success in that situation.

Kris – I think it’s. Well, yeah, but you’re saying it because it comes more easily to you. Uh,

Derrick – Possibly. But I, but I, I do think it’s, it’s got to do with.

Kris – Yeah Practice Makes perfect too.

Derrick – That has, that has an element to it.

Kris – Definitely. Yeah. Oh. And I mean I’ve chosen one of the professions in medicine which is the most controlled, like most other professions would have patients that want to be seen at a certain time, at least usually.

But mind I just sitting in glass jars or you know, sitting on sitting under the microscope and yeah, I kind of there are deadlines in vague terms, but they’re not waiting for me at that time so I can sort my own structure out there. There’s no reason to need to adopt because I can do all I can. Rosta myself, I’m good at doing and structure my own time. So I in my job, I don’t need to be very adaptable and I would say a lot of my colleagues.

One of the reasons they choose pathology, because they’re also not adaptable. Mm, and I see this because if there’s something unexpected that comes up almost like the world ceases to exist for. Yes. You know, as you know, most people who are very adaptable, like. Right, let’s do it. Let’s change. Get it done. Yeah. No, I don’t work with those people. So which is fine. You know, like some character strengths are needed in some industries in spades and some aren’t.

Derrick – Let’s let’s go back to that the the the topic of self sabotage, because that to me is very interesting, especially for someone like yourself, who obviously you you have excelled in in in multiple areas, yet you still feel yet you still face this self sabotage.

Kris – Yes.

Derrick – What is it that you’ve learned through PKM, through your own personal experience?

Kris – Yeah. Thank you for asking. This is a bit of a passion project of mine within the model that I teach.

So I’ve read a lot about the concept of self sabotage and spoken to my mentors, a psychologist who develop and propagate this model. And I would say for myself, some of the self sabotage that I’ve overcome are as follows. I used to have a problem showing anger because I was worried that people would reject me and so I would sabotage situations by not telling them where my boundaries had been crossed. Repeatedly, I used to do that. Do you have any specific examples?

I mean, some of them are.

So you say like Mickey kind of like relationship stuff. But let me just say, OK, let me just say a boundary of mine might be I’m going to speak in abstract, protect other people. That’s. So let’s say I have a house and has a fence, which is a boundary and it’s my property. Yeah. If I don’t recognize my own boundaries, I wouldn’t allow anyone to come and build on my land. And I won’t say no because I don’t want them to be angry with me.

Derrick – Right. Right.

Kris – And so I allow people to encroach on me because I don’t say no. I don’t know any differently. How is that self sabotage? Because it’s actually OK to say no to protect my boundaries about who I am. I think it’s like for me, it’s really important to be able to say, like, OK, like an example, I’m gay. I don’t talk about it forever because it’s just like it’s like my hair is this color and whatever, like but if someone made a homophobic joke, it would be self sabotage of me just to accept that.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – But defending my boundary would be to say, I feel angry that you said that because you’re saying something about me as a person that’s not OK. Can you stop joking like that with me? So sorry that we can continue our professional relationship, our friendship. Yeah, that’s what I mean by sabotage. In that way. I’m actually not defending my boundaries. OK, that’s an example of a boundary. And that boundary might be I don’t want someone to belittle me in front of people.

Yeah, OK. But if I don’t know how to defend that boundary, I allow it. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think I think that’s a very important thing. I had a conversation recently about people just not being aware of when they are being violated.

Derrick – Yes. So that’s first thing, not even understanding that that’s happening or that is a violation.

Kris – I’ve trained people who were he didn’t even know that a boundary existed. Exactly. And they kind of look back and think, oh, my gosh.

And that’s why I had been a doormat or insert insert or, you know, people took my money or me just insert whatever kind of boundary is relevant for them. I mean, gosh, dare I say, like, I put up with a severely abusive relationship, like someone might say, you know. Yeah. That that could be a boundary. Yeah, it’s over time just gets encroached upon. And if someone doesn’t have the skills to defend their boundary, then

Derrick – That’s a very big thing.Defense.

Kris – Yeah.

Derrick – Awareness and defense.

Kris – Yeah. Like it’s it’s okay to say no and the world won’t cease to exist.

It’s okay to say that’s not okay with me and then strategize about I mean not then to walk away and abandon the friendship or develop the relationship but just to explain. Why it’s not OK, person’s person’s boundaries are their own, and one of the things I really strongly believe is that the best gift of love you can give someone is tell them what your boundaries are so they know how to sail in your sea.

Derrick – how, given that this is kind of for many people, is very murky. And knowing what those boundaries are, what kind of processes can people try to try and get more clear what that boundaries where that fence line is?

Kris – Do you remember before how I said like, I wasn’t very good at noticing opportunities? Right. Some people do not know how to do this. And so I don’t think I can just say what your boundaries are, but they’ll say no. But if I tell someone that they might reject me, I will have a defense for this. If they don’t know how to defend their boundary, their defense will be to have none so that no one will be angry with them because the thought of being rejected by someone else could be so painful for someone.

So I guess. So my, my, my my suggestion is by me saying this, and if someone says, oh, this is resonating with me, I’m feeling a feeling Murky like what I’m hearing Kris talk about having a boundary and someone and being afraid of getting rejected. If I say a boundary, then a good strategy would be to find a therapist that can help you because it’s actually a useful life skill and not everyone can do it. And some people are taught as kids not to be angry.

Derrick – Yeah. And so it’s bad to be angry. So stuff it down,

Kris – go to your room and come back when you’ve got a smile on your face. Daddy doesn’t like it when you’re angry, like all sorts of things that you can you can hear all your awards and safe, like, heaven forbid, for a child to experience severe, like damaging kind of punishment. If they show anger, you know, and they learn, I have to suppress anger now, please. There’s a huge difference by this type of anger where I say, Derrick, this is hypothetical, right, Derrick?

That’s not okay with me. I’m sorry. This is my stuff. And explain that. I don’t know, is it okay if we proceed knowing that about me now? That’s the anger I’m talking about. I’m not talking about that. Other behavior is pathological when we talk about that some other time, maybe. But yeah, I’m talking about just actual authentic displays of where boundaries are and saying that’s not OK. Yeah, yeah. That’s that’s not OK with me.

Kris – This this other behavior, it’s OK with me.

Derrick – So you mentioned that’s a great idea. I mean, speaking to a therapist and I think it’s it’s good. What I find now is that people are more open and more accepting of speaking to a therapist. Of course, like in America, it’s very commonplace. But I think there’s still a lot of stigma attached to it.

Kris – Yeah, but it could also be a life coach or counselor, like it doesn’t like, I guess someone that has a really good friend that has who can probably if you’re in a situation where you realize this is something you need to do, your friend is probably seeing you.

Suffer because of us. It’s like, oh, my God, what is Samantha doing, Samantha hypothetical, what is she doing again? Like there she is again, another relationship. She’s again the doormat. Yeah, she’s doing all his laundry is whatever, whatever. Just so he doesn’t leave her like she’s just she’s just so worried about him being upset that she’s not saying anything and she’s a nervous wreck and she’s starting to not take care of her parents again.

She’s doing her Samantha thing again, you know, so that that that kind of gift of friendship to say, I see you and this is not you healthy. Like, what can I do to help you? You want to practice saying no. Right. Right with me. Well, actually.

Derrick – So that would be a defense strategy.

Kris – Yeah. Yes, there

Derrick – Are there are a specific number of types of strategies.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there are things you can learn to like.

It could be a formula to say. I think the best way to express that kind of boundary is to talk about your own experience. If I have a boundary and you and I perceive you breach that hypothetically and I said, you, you, you, that’s not going to work.

You’ll get defensive or implode or explode potentially. And like so if I just talk about my experience when I experience something, that’s the first step. Yeah, I felt anger. I felt pissed off. I felt that’s not OK, because then I can insert what it is about me that makes me me. What I want is describe what I want, where my boundaries respected, is that okay with you? What can someone say? I haven’t attacked you?

I mean, I can say no and then you can say I feel sad about that because this is important to me. And I’ve told you that and I understand that you at this time can’t give that to me. So I will have to go our separate ways as a friend or, you know, like it could come to that. That’s still healthy. Yeah, I’m not, like, slashing the tires or, you know, like bad mouthing Iran.

I’m telling you why that is. Yeah. So that kind of formula, when I experience something, I feel and then don’t pussyfoot around with this feeling. I don’t I feel just sad. I feel angry. Just just say it and get through it. Some people can’t say that word. I’ve trained them. It’s really interesting. When I experience something, I feel angry because and talk about me. What I want is this. Can you give that to me or can we talk about how that could work? Yeah.

Derrick – No I think that’s really useful.

Kris – Yeah, it’s a very good it’s a big thing, I mean, even like sometimes children speaking to their parents, like adult children, I mean, and parents who don’t know how to stop parenting. You know what? I don’t want you because of their own issues. You know, when this is, again, hypothetical, like when I experience you coming over to my house and rearranging all the furniture, I feel angry because what I experience is being a child again.

And the message I’m getting is you don’t think I can take care of myself. What I want is to be able to live in my house the way I want and for you to love me because of that. Is that OK? And you might have to go through this.

Oh, yes. Yes, I know it is. I mean, you’re justifying why, but but I’m just saying it’s not okay with me. And and that’s the key to be open about your experience to explain why and then to be persistent, to actually not cave, because if it’s a genuine boundary, it’s your boundary.

Derrick – It’s really interesting that that this kind of a essentiall type of communications is never taught or

Kris – Except in my seminar,

Derrick – it hasn’t been taught. I mean, I really feel that this stuff needs to be shared or there needs to be communication 101 in school.

Kris – Yes, yes, yes. Talking about all this stuff, how to express grief, how to do this. That’s another that’s another one of the authentic emotions like a boundary and. Yes, yes, exactly. So the good news is that this isn’t the only model that teaches this, but PCM is taught in schools by some school teachers. There are schools that are set up with that is the philosophy.

There’s a couple of trainers I know who teach this model, who teach teachers and there’s a guy in Sydney who does this for free, where he goes to like western suburbs of Sydney and does seminars for kids and their parents. It’s it’s not compulsory, but he just says, this is my gift. I can give you. You know,

Derrick – It just boggles me. Why isn’t this kind of stuff just I mean, we talk about teaching languages. We talk about doing all this other stuff. But why hasn’t this been, like, legislated? And you know what I mean.

Kris – I love the way you’re thinking.

Derrick – I mean, I just feel it should be part of the normal curriculum.

Kris – It’s probably better than learning how to integrate under the under, you know, find the area under the curve.

Derrick – Exactly. Exactly.

Kris – Which I really liked. But yeah, I think well, these things are called soft skills. I don’t like that term. Right. Because I think they’re essential. Yeah.

Derrick – We can rename them. We’ll call them essential skills. Yeah. Yeah.

Kris – Well they are, they’re actually survival skills. Yeah. I say if we go back to tribes’. What are the benefits for tribe to be able to defend their boundary?

I mean, it’s easy to answer, you know, so they can exist so they can continue to grow so that their their stuff isn’t taken against their will. There’s lots of reasons why a tribe would want to protect their boundaries. Dare I say we Australia has been protecting their boundaries with the enemy, which is coronavirus right now. So, I mean, there are there are reasons to defend the boundaries on a big scale. So to for an individual.

Hmm. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I’m even thinking about, you know, 15 year old girl dating who can’t say no to her boyfriend.

Derrick – Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s

Kris – I mean, that’s another example because I don’t want him to reject me. Yeah.

I mean, that’s a stereotype. But gosh, it’s there for a reason. Yeah, absolutely. There’s heaps of examples of where people the pain of being rejected is so severe that they cannot imagine saying no in situations where they perceive that they know might mean rejected. And that can also invite manipulation. Yeah. If you don’t do this, then I’ll reject you. I mean, it can be a basis that. Yes, you know. Yeah, I agree.

Essential skills such as defending boundaries, learning how to grieve is. My model teachers six that they may be more, but that’s the way the reason that there are six. Well, I guess it it kind of aligns so well with the different parts in us that it teaches us well. So it kind of like, you know, this part of you this is the essential life skills, which are the six parts that you the model. Yeah. So it kind of divides.

I won’t use the model terminology, but it divides us into a feeling, part of thinking part a believing or opinion, part a reflective part, the the explorative reacting to life part and the action based. Just get in and do it first part and

Derrick – OK.

Kris – And then with each, with each part of our set we kind of learn about an essential skill that can be very useful to navigate that. I mean, like, for example, if I just stick to the feeling part of us, if we’re so concerned about the feeling of being rejected, we might not be able to have a boundary.

Right. And so we kind of say it’s actually a feeling of anger is actually the missing link here. You say, I feel angry. Because of the boundary being breached and I want to continue your relationship with you and these this is this is what works for me, blah, blah, blah, blah, like, that’s very useful. So, yeah. So there’s so yes, defending a boundary in a healthy way is is is, I believe now having lived my life, but also teaching an essential skill.

And I love your term. You can trademark that essential myself but. Well ok. Well ok.

Derrick – OK, well I mean we’ve made it up there. We’re cool. Yes, yes, yes.

Kris – Yes.

Derrick – So yeah. So there’s obviously yeah. We could probably just have a whole session just on that. Yeah. Right. But let’s move on to just one last thing before, we call it a day today because we’ve had a very, very full conversation.

Kris – We’ve gone in all sorts of directions,

Derrick – But it’s been very, very fascinating. Um, one thing that I have been speaking with you about just on messaging has been about procrastination. Yeah. And and purely the reason why I thought about you was because what I was saying at the beginning that because I saw you as a very disciplined, action orientated person and I was curious as to think what your perspective was on procrastination.

Kris – Yes.

Derrick – Whether you procrastinate.

Kris – Yeah, no. Well, I have procrastinated lots of times in my life, but it’s usually been because I haven’t been able to have one of the essential skills. I might have procrastinated about telling someone why I was upset with them.

Derrick – Sure. That was because of the rejection.

Kris – Yeah. Yeah. Or I might. Yeah. Yes. So there or I might have procrastinated on seizing an opportunity because I was too afraid to leap without a plan. So that’s another example of procrastinating. I’m not sure that procrastination is the same as like it’s not the opposite of motivated. I think demotivational burnout is the opposite of motivated. I think procrastination is a double edged sword and depending on the situation, can be a good thing or a bad thing,

Derrick – Right

Kris – Yeah. And so say an example of good procrastination might be, I don’t know, choosing who you marry. Like, not just going the first person that says you’re cute, right? Yeah, that’s getting married, you know, like maybe it’s a good thing to actually think about the future and what that might mean. And I don’t know, like that’s I don’t know what that example came to my head, but or I’m deciding to buy a car like some people would say, oh, Kris just shut up with your stories about procrastination and buy the car.

But maybe it’s good to think, well, what features do I want? Sure. Or, you know, what do I want what I want for my car? Do I want to look good in it or want it to be fuel economical? Don’t the sound system, you know, do I want you know and think and so that people might think that’s procrastinating because you’re not buying a car, but you’re actually delaying the decision because you’re wanting more information.

Yeah, yeah. I think what you ask me is how how do I procrastinate or whether you

Derrick – Whether you do or not. Yeah. I mean, yeah definitely I, I just want to go back to the your thing. You’re saying that you don’t think procrastination is the opposite of motivation.

Kris – Yeah, I don’t think so.

Derrick – So what what would be what

Kris – I think the opposite of motivation is almost like burnout. Yeah. OK, yeah. And I think, I think yeah. That’s how I see it. I think demotivation or burnout is the opposite of being motivated. But I think procrastination, I think it’s important to think about. Is it a problem? Like is it a problem Einstein took 10 years to discover his theory of equals EMC squared,

Derrick – right?

Kris – He was reflecting about it for a decade whilst working as an office clock. Was he procrastinating?

I don’t know. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I you publishing papers, so you’re procrastinating. But he was like, yeah, he was I didn’t he didn’t come to him until ten years. And so, yes, his output in the scientific community was zero. And someone might have said that’s procrastinating, but he just wasn’t in the position to have thought of the theory.

Derrick – So what about in terms of I think most people would maybe think of procrastination in terms of, say, habits they want to pick up? Yeah, okay. Like, I want to exercise. I want to I want I want that six pack. I want to look right. Whatever I guess.

Kris – Yeah. So hear you, I hear you. .

Derrick – And yet they don’t have it and then and they don’t do it and then they put it off. Yeah. So waking up early I mean simple things like do you like one thing, for example, something that I’m working on right now because one of my problems is I try and take on too much too quickly. Right. So I need to to slow down and just do one thing at a time. Well, one thing that I’ve got a whole bunch of stuff that I procrastinate on that I’m slowly working down and ticking off, you know, some of the initial ones.

And there’s still some that I still I’m still working on, such as I’ll give you an example, reviewing my day, like I’d like to be doing that every day.

Kris – Yeah, I know what I would do in that situation, but I don’t think I’d look honestly. It’s because I like to structure my time and plan. I would actually have a schedule. Right. Like if it’s that important to you that you do it. Yeah. Set an alarm for 8:00 p.m.. Yeah.

Derrick – And just make sure you do it. Don’t get distracted by.

Kris – Well, yes. Yeah. Okay. So this is going to be easier for me because I’m because I’m so internally motivated. So I don’t notice external distractions so much.

Derrick – Yeah. Yeah. But I just, I am learning, I am learning that right now. Yeah. Like I’m just finding like I’ve been a lot more focused in the last week or so. Yeah. Yeah.

Kris – I guess. Well what would motivate you. Would it be. Public acclaim, like if you had I and someone you respected or thousands of people on social media knowing that you were doing it, would that motivate you? You’re like, yeah, I’m doing, you know.

Derrick – Yeah. Now, see, I think for me, what motivates me more is not letting people down. And that’s what I’ve used to get. That’s good. That’s a strategy I’ve used in the past.

Kris – This is brilliant stuff.

Derrick – Yeah. And that’s what I that’s that’s what I’ve discovered. Like it works for me. Yes.

Kris – So this is very, very good. I think you’ve nailed how to motivate yourself. Yeah. Because you know what will give you a big battery charge about your sense of duty. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, yes, this is all in the model.

But honestly, once you know what to listen for people to tell you. Yeah. And so knowing that if your commitment is so that someone else is being protected or is being advanced in some way or whatever, then that probably will be all the motivation you need. Like if you set that condition, even if you set it up that way, if you tell them and make that pact with them. Oh man. Then then it means falling on your own sword, you know, like I think that might be another step.

You’re going to actually say to them, this is really important to me that I do this, I’m committing to it and I’m saying it and tell them why I’m saying it out loud, because I am someone who does go shiny thing shiny thing  sometimes. But I don’t want to do that with this thing because it’s really important to me. And also, if they know it’s important to you, you could say to them, can you check in with me in a week?

Because I will really enjoy saying what I’ve been doing about this, because that way I can show how dedicated I’ve been. So if you check in with me and I’ll say, yeah, I’m really proud of myself, I did these things and I’m like, I am halfway there. And then then they go, Oh, thanks, man. Or whatever it is or where it might even be. Oh, this is so good. And then so you get that kind of validation that your purpose for work has been meaningful to them.

And so, so yet in that situation, that sounds like if you can get some kind of feedback that the work you’re doing is purposeful and that someone else is noticing that then then that would be a big motivation for you, I think. Yeah.

Derrick – So so I guess just trying to work out the message that your or the message using your model is really finding out, find your own motivation. What is it that really drives you to

Kris – Be really honest about it. Why do you want to do it? What is the gain. What and what is your why.

What is what are you wanting to do? I mean, in general terms is your motivation. So people like you is your motivation so that you can say to yourself, I take off the list, I’m a competent human is my motivation that someone’s recognizing me, that I’m making a difference, which I think is your thing, you know, that I’m actually making a difference to them or I’m showing that I’m showing this dedication.

Derrick – What do you think is what do you think is most what’s holding most people back from the observation?

Kris – Four simple things, my mom saying, like exercising or eating less or eating more healthy, gosh, I’m doing doing housework. That’s a great question. I’m not sure if I’ll be able to generalize it. Let me think about that

Derrick – or just what the top three type of things that stop people. Is it the fact that they just not very clear about the importance, the why the importance? Yes. And

Kris – Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I mean, I wish I had to reread this just before I came, but this. I think example was people quitting smoking and their motivation, and I think that there’s like understanding what it is and where the block is is really important. So I guess that’s the thing. I don’t know if there’s one thing, but actually learn what the block is and actually just be the adult and just think about what is stopping me. Be brutally honest.

Derrick – Right.

Kris – And, you know, it’s okay to fail. So just be brutally honest and say I’m not succeeding where I want to be. Why isn’t this working? The cigarette smoking, for example? Some people just don’t think it’s that harmful. And so they want to stop. But I just don’t buy into that. It causes cancer. And so there’s no real motivation there.

Derrick – Yeah, that’s not that’s not going to help. That’s a no.

Kris – You know what I mean. So that’s that’s not going to motivate them by having a photo of someone’s face falling off because they don’t think it’s going to happen to them.

Derrick – And and also just the fact that it’s always there and then just slowly. Yeah. Lessens the effect.

Kris – Yeah. Or if, you know, let’s say some people don’t want to call. That they had, but some people, it doesn’t bother me so much. So that’s not going to motivate them. If they’re coughing, they don’t care or the cost. But if they’ve got money coming out of every which way, then that’s not a problem. So it’s not going to be a motivator like what is the motivator? Is it. So my breath doesn’t smell. I mean, sorry. Excuse me if you’re smoking. I mean, this is just an example of that on the air. Like, it’s a common thing that people try and fail to give up and then. And then and then people do succeed.

So what is what is your motivation and what is what is your block? What is holding you back? What are you afraid of letting go of? I think actually that might be the thing now that I’m thinking about it, just acknowledge what is the thing I’m not prepared to let go of. Am I not prepared to let go of the next exciting opportunity that comes along or am I not prepared to let go of being distracted because I just love being distracted?

Right. I just love shiny things. Or am I not prepared to let go of the possibility I might fail or am I not prepared to let go about the fact that people might notice me, which may have been why I hesitated with the dance thing for sure. You know, what is it that I’m really afraid of letting go of and then think. Which is more important. All right. The letting go of time to do the thing or to actually stay safe, don’t I don’t think it’s right to force someone to break free of all these things unless they already have some knowledge of what it is you’re ready to let go of.

I mean, for some people coming out, as you know, their sexuality, it’s letting go of how they think they’re supposed to be, you know, just letting go of that.

It’s like, you know what I’m at this point now where I’m being authentically me is much more important than clinging on to pretending I’m someone else. And so I can let go of that. So I think that’s it. What am I not letting go of? And then just give yourself permission to let yourself let go of it if you want to. And if not, then. You know, the housework, and I’m not prepared to let go of the fact that takes up my time, so I’m not going to clean my room.

It’s like, OK, well, then you’re going to miss your room.

Derrick – Make peace of  having a messy room.

Kris – Yeah, but you know what? I’m actually prepared to let go of that time now. I’m actually not going to watch TV because actually having a clean room will be better for me because I can find my staff and I might want to have people come in my room now and not just close the door. Don’t go in there.

So you know what? So I think that’s it. Like, what is it that I’m having trouble letting go of? And then just look at that and say, why? Well, I look to look for evidence of sabotage there and then think, well, am I going to be brave today and let go of that thing and just see what happens?

Derrick – That’s a good question. I think leading it with, am I going to be brave today? That puts a positive spin on it. Yeah,

Kris – yeah, yeah, yeah. And you don’t have to face the dragon with the, you know, without them, but you don’t have to do that. But you could say, well, am I going to be. Yeah. And then, you know, then you can ask yourself what’s the worst that can happen here. Yeah. I mean, yeah, for little things like, you know, why am I not unpacking the dishwasher, like I said, you know, but it might be because it’s just fucking boring, you know.

But am I going to let go of the boredom or can I strategize? Well, what can I do? Can I put on some fun music or can I make a pact with the friend and say, I’m going to call a friend who’s fun and have my ear buds in my ear while I unpack the dishwasher and say I’m doing that really shitty, boring thing again? Please help me laugh. And then just, you know, I have a chat with him.

And that way before, you know, you’re unpacking dishwashers and you’re actually enjoying it, I don’t know. That was a very slick. But that’s my thing.

Derrick – no, no I think I think I think that’s a that’s a that’s a good way of looking at different perspective. And you never know. I mean, there’s obviously always different strategies and different things and and it’s going to work, as you said, very personal.

Kris – So, yeah, I mean, like another example would be like attending a seminar that’s to talk about different strategies, using motivation. I’m not a big fan of someone that works at what works for them and then writes a book because that works for them. I’m not sure that that’s good, but learning lots of different strategies. And which one of these applies, I think that’s magic. Yeah, because you get you know what that is how that’s how my brain works.

Yeah. If I declare to the world that I’m going to do something, I won’t lose face so that that can be my strategy. Sure. Or if I can find meaning and purpose in it and recognize and making the world a better place. That’s, you know, that’s my motivation. Like so I think something like that which gives you that’s different ways that people might be motivated and think that that’s me, that one, not this other one.

That’s going to be bullshit for me to find your own

Derrick – very valid

Kris – be honest about yourself and what will work for you.

Derrick – Yeah. All right, fantastic. OK, so let’s um is anything else you want to share.

Kris – Oh, my goodness. No, that’s a lot. I guess I would want to share that. I’ve really enjoyed you asking me these questions and I haven’t really as you know, we didn’t have a script.

Derrick – No, not at all. So casual conversation.

Kris – Yeah. But I’ve really enjoyed the journey that you’ve taken me on, I guess. And I also want to share that thank you for recognising me that you saw me as disciplined. I can assure you I had a fear of failure. So that might have been part of what back then, I don’t now. Said that might have been part of the reason why I came across like that. So beware of what’s under the top lid. It’s not always glowing, but.

Yeah, but I guess I was that kind of kid. And I, I look I used to look back on you and think, wow, that guy so like gregarious and made things happen. And these celebrities, you know, coming to Brisbane and Derrick knows these people and I’m like I’m kind of like, you’re so different from me in that regard.

And I really admired you. I mean, you just had that skill of being able to connect people and just just land in situations. So that was so cool.

Derrick – Thank you. Yeah.

Kris – No no, yeah. Absolutely. So yeah. Yeah. And it’s good, you know, work to your strengths.

Derrick – Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. One last question. Yeah. If you have I don’t know whether you have a bumper sticker on your car.

Kris – I don’t.

Derrick – But if you had one what would be the message.

Kris – Yeah. Something like be yourself. Oh, no, I know it to be. You are enough. So whoever whenever someone reads it, yes, I can just see the statement, yes, and go, OK, that might be confronting for some people want to buy into that, but everyone is enough. Yeah. Without achievements. Without anything.

Derrick – Absolutely.

Kris – It just enough just the way you are and whatever else you want to do, just go out and make it happen. But no, it’s, it’s you are enough. That’s that’s my message. That’s my bumper sticker.

Derrick – Brilliant OK, Kris, it’s been amazing time here. Having a chat with you.

Kris – Thank you. Likewise

Derrick – If people. Yeah. And if people would like to find or get in contact with you, what’s the best way that.

Kris – Yeah. OK, so I’m pretty new to social media, but I do have an Instagram account, which is one word I think is one word of Vampur Vampurr as in the vampire cat. I don’t know. Long story

Derrick – Kris loves cats. We didn’t even get out of that whole other episode

Kris –  I have a little thing about that. So, yeah, it’s a vampire. Yeah. So I may be slow to respond because I’m not someone that pounces an opportunity straight away, but I do, I do respond. So that’s one way also. You mean you can email me so I can just rattle off my email address. Sure. But also probably the best one is just my name with an underscore. So KRIS Underscore KERR at Hotmail dot com and it’s just one of the many emails I have, but that one will get to me. So it’s an oldie but a Goldie is

Derrick – you still hanging onto to that.

Kris – Well I mean it’s, it’s just my name you know. And yeah. I mean I have other ones but that will be where I, where I look for stuff like that.

Derrick – So that could be in your new question. – Who Here has got a Hotmail address. Yeah

Kris – Yeah. Old school man. All right.

Derrick – Thank you so much again, Kris. It’s been an absolute pleasure having you over.

Kris – Thank you. Likewise. Thanks very much.

• Kris Kerr’s Adult Dancing Classes on Wednesdays in Ashgrove